Narrator: Welcome to EMTalk. These are the stories of saving lives from the people who saved them. Today’s episode, is my scene safe? How to ensure the well-being of first responders. Here to discuss saving lives. Licensed paramedic. Your host, Juddson Smith.
Juddson:
Yes, I am Judson Smith, a licensed paramedic. I have been administrative for quite some time in the last seven years, so it’s been just a little time since I have been on the truck. So, I’m bringing somebody in who spends some time on the truck still. He could cover this topic better with us. He’s had some really good experience. So, my guest today is Mr. Zachary Bangert. I’ll call him Zach throughout because it’s weird to call somebody by their full first name when you’ve never called them that before. First name is your first name is Kenneth or is. I guess Zach and I don’t know each other at all because this is so embarrassing. They only sign a lot of my paperwork. It’s true, I did. It’s accurate, I guess, but I’ve never called you Kenneth before. It’s funny. Chad was my, his preceptor. Yeah. Did you become a paramedic? Yeah. I was your lead preceptor. That was a long time ago. This explains who you are, like how Yoda would describe Luke. You know, the paddle one has become the master. Yeah. Yeah. You were the student. But you’re a better paramedic than I am. I deny that. Well, Anyway, I brought you on today because you have a lot of experience with scene safety issues, not through any fault of your own. And we’ll jump into that later. We’ll have a generic conversation first because, really, we have a ton of crazy stuff going on in the world, and first responders are constantly being put at risk. And, some first responders, police officers, that’s, you know, it’s part of their job. They realize they must be at risk to keep the rest of us safe. And that is not to diminish that. I know you have a brother in law enforcement, and that’s super awesome. That’s important. But usually, like our side of the first responder world, we’re not supposed to be in that situation, but we get put in it a lot.
So, my first question is, I will hit on something big immediately. Not that I don’t want to get political about it, but what do you think it’s like being a first responder to these peaceful protests that are going on at universities right now? I’ve never experienced a peaceful protest, but I think the big thing is something like that. But anything in EMS, in general, is you’re always wanting to expect the unexpected because you never know what’s going to pop off. I mean, you’re there. And most people, the majority, are going to respect you while you’re there, and they’re going to want you to be safe because they know that you’re keeping them safe if they need it. True. But there is the chance of something going crazy with, you know, guns, fights. I mean, people don’t understand your role or why you’re there while you’re in uniform. So really, it’s just expecting the unexpected. Well, so have you seen the movie Civil War? Do you ever go to the movies? Is that, like, thing?
Zach:
Before I had a child, I went a lot more. I have not seen Civil War. Okay, it’s right up your alley.
Juddson:
You’d find it super interesting after having conversations with me. I saw the previews, and I wanted it. It’s a very good movie, and it’s basically about how the current state of our political environment leads to Texas and California seceding from the US. Now, I don’t say those two states would end up seceding together, but when you break it down, I don’t doubt it. That could probably happen. Anyways, this whole thing, that’s the scene safety thing, is what I thought about at the very beginning because at the start of the movie, they’re like at this, at this peaceful protest, and everything looks like it’s going to play out. Okay. And then suddenly somebody runs out into the group of people and blows up. Sure. Yeah. And I’m like, man, look, I mean, because there are medics nearby and I’m like, that’s I mean, that situation has, well, even years before you have the shooting in Reno, during this concert, you have the Boston Marathon bombing. I mean, as big as 911, which we’ve seen in our lifetime, is unexpected and can happen anywhere.
Zach:
Oh, yeah. And you can be anywhere in any situation, whether it’s a volunteer role payroll or just like a spectator with training. You have all these things going in your head that, I mean, there’s so many different scenarios for any of these. It makes it so complex to like and more challenging to be compassionate. Sometimes, because you’re so, like, on edge trying to make sure that, like, everything is okay in those kinds of situations. Only some calls you get are like that. Many calls feel like if it happened or like building up into, like preparing for that, I’m the opposite. Preparing for as if I don’t even think about that half the time, which might be why I have stories. I guess I guess in the middle of it, I, I don’t know, I just, I turn it coming turns on me. That is, this is what needs to happen. Yeah.
Juddson:
I feel the same way when I’m in a situation—really any kind of situation as a robot. Yeah, most people would panic. I’m just doing what I’m doing. This is why first responders are a breed of their own; not everybody can do that. And so, it’s like the weirdest superpower ever. I remember snowboarding one year and someone having a cardiac arrest in front of me, and then that just played out. It’s just that everyone starts freaking out, and then, you know, me jumping down, and then there is a nurse practitioner and the E.R. doctor all in the same area. It’s kind of like it worked out well, and it just worked out beautifully. I mean, and so was this, like recently, like 3 or 4 years ago? Yeah. But, like, everyone freaks out around you, but then something turns on, and you just. Yeah, that’s all I need to do.
Juddson:
Was it outside?
Zach:
Yeah, we’re standing for lift tickets. Oh my gosh, right in the morning. So, it’s too cold in Colorado, which could be better. Oh yeah, I hate working scenes. Like in the ice. In the snow. Yeah, because you’re wet and you’re cold, and you’re like, I want to get this person off the ground and in the ambulance. They had an ambulance quickly over there, and you get them back, I don’t think; it doesn’t happen very often. No, unfortunately. Yeah. It’s like the myth I try to dispel immediately to students is that it doesn’t work like that. When we don’t shock flatline, how hard would it be in the movies for them to know the difference and put the right rhythm up there? It takes two seconds. Effect checking, sure. Or even having an innovation, yeah. There’s a YouTube. Yeah. These are super simple things, and nobody does them.
Juddson:
All right. So, later in the year, towards Halloween, I’m doing an episode with a guy that I consider a horror movie expert. We’re going to talk about slasher scenes and how realistic they are or unrealistic. And so, I’m coming at it from, from the medical side, like, you wouldn’t die from that. Yeah. Or. Yeah, that would have been dead a long time ago. Which is which is more so the case in most movies. I don’t know, TV shows. It seems like the things that they that they die from are minor, in my opinion. Like, they’ll get shot at, like, nowhere near a vital organ in, like, the lower part of the gut or something like where the appendix would be. Yeah. And they’ll be dead like an annoying thing for me. It’s like they are never in that scenario. Like you’re in the real world. That would never happen. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, it’s like commercials. Like the horror films, there’s a car or a shed with a bunch of chainsaws, and they’ve had a wave behind the chainsaws. But, you know, most of the time, if I find myself in a creepy situation, I was like, you know, we should probably leave. Yeah, that’s why we have a car. Let’s get out in the back of an ambulance. Exactly. They’re screwed. So did you. Have you ever listened to any of the podcast episodes? It’s okay if the answer’s no.
Juddson:
Yeah. Okay. Answers now. So, back during Covid, I started doing this thing where it was a zombie apocalypse. Like, I got bored. And so my episodes were this story I was telling about zombies, and the premise was that I was with Mark Flores when all this zombie apocalypse. He was speaking with you or. No, no, no, no. Like that’s the story, you hear the story. And I was so creative; I didn’t even come up with different names, and I wasn’t. I’m sorry. Hey, I may have met you somewhere along the way. Maybe, but he was on the ambulance with me, so we were both in this apocalypse together, but on an ambulance. And so that was the premise of the zombie apocalypse. As we were rolling through the apocalypse on an ambulance. And it was. This was really kind of sad, as I’ve had these thoughts like, man, I was in zombie apocalypse.
Zach:
What would I do? My first thought was to go get an ambulance and stop it with a bunch of stuff. I mean, you all the room. Yeah, it’s hard to get medical supplies on it. That was my thought. I was like, look at this. I could live a long time like that. Yeah, but eventually, my thing is, I think the gas would end up being the problem with diesel or gas. You’d be screwed eventually. Any vehicle. Yeah. That’s why I, in every zombie movie, is like highways full of broken down vehicles for zombie land. Yeah, except for zombie lead, where every car they get in has gas in it. Yeah. Like nuts. Why would anybody have any ignition keys or somewhere? And I got ammunition and guns in there, and that’s, you know, that’s how you know, it wasn’t a first responder that was driving that car because they would be like, I’m just going to stay in the car. Yeah, we’ll be all right. Okay. Scene safety—it’s all these zombies. It’s a relevant topic. It’s a relevant subtopic. So, you know, we must always teach scene safety at our school. And so, it’s a big deal. My instructors, every scenario is safe besides the scene. And it’s one of those things that the students shrug off, like, “Oh, is my scene safe?”
Juddson:
Yeah, but it is, and it just isn’t always true. I mean, I’ve had people try to fight me. I’ve had people try to stab me. And when we get to your story, it gets elevated. It’s in. But this is just minor incidents. When I think back on it, I’m just like, well, this was happening at the moment. But the scene is very rarely completely safe for one shot, or you just never. Yeah, yeah, I guess that’s true. And so we’re assuming it, and maybe we’re doing a disservice by teaching it this way. Oh, yeah. Your scene safe is dangerous if we continue to put that in people’s heads that the scene will be safe.
Zach:
And in some areas that’s how it plays out most of the time. Do it. That’s a cool thought. I mean, I heard a story of a firefighter in the area saying that, they’re on a traffic accident and they’re working on a patient, and the apparatus is blocking the flow of traffic, just like policy says.
Juddson:
And someone still veered into the fire truck—big flashing lights. You drive into it. It’s not. And, he had a jump off of, like they’re on a bridge. He jumped off the bridge and held onto a rope, which saved him.
It’s like a movie, and yeah, so in a scenario metaphor, is my scene safe? Well, you’re on a highway with a passerby. I was going 70 miles an hour. Yeah, yeah. Just having that in the back of your head. I need to be aware of this during my scenario, that there are people driving, and you think about how difficult that can be because we do get so focused on trying to do our job. It could be really hard to notice that there’s something else going on around you, but you do get really good at it. I mean, I’ll say you get used to it, and you get to where it’s just second nature to pay attention to your environment. You kind of have to grow up in this field. Yes, absolutely.
Juddson:
And it grows. I mean, day one, you’re not gonna be like that. No. Day one, I would say I probably put myself in danger on a regular basis, even sitting on bezels. Bedbugs. Yeah. I don’t you guys, if there’s anything out there that’s more dangerous than bedbugs, I would love to see it. That’s the grossest thing to me.
And where you were on the truck that time. You were a student on the truck when we had to go back to the station and, like, change out of our clothes and everything, weren’t you probably when I sat on the bed book? Yeah, probably. The firefighters were all, like, spraying stuff on their boots. I was like, “What are you all?” Yes, that was it. And they said, “There are bedbugs.” And that was it. We went to the hotel. That’s right over there. It was right over here. We were on a call there, and there were like seven people living in this hotel room, and I one, it’s really sad that that’s a situation that people end up in.
Zach:
And so I don’t want to make light of it. You know, only some people’s blessed with the same things. But dang, that was a rough situation. Yeah. And we ended up having to call CPS and, like, all this other stuff which your sister used to work for. Kind of work for CPS, right? Yeah. It’s cool they have her on here and talk about that sometime.
Zach:
Possible hazards. We’ve talked about several of them. We’ve talked about vehicles on wreck scenes. They’re definitely a huge hazard. There are so many videos out there of firetrucks, ambulances, or cops getting hit on the side of the road. You’ve got the patients themselves, who can be a danger. Toxins, chemicals. I mean, really, you could just name a million different things.
Juddson:
I mean, the weather is a big one that we don’t think of hard enough sometimes, you know, because the weather plays a factor in, in multiple ways, like you got wet roads, then the traffic becomes even more of a hazard or, you got damp road, wet roads you slip when you’re walking. I know that sounds pretty minor compared to the other things you’re talking about.
Zach:
I’ve heard of people tear an ACL. Yeah, on the way to a medical call. Exactly. Too fast. And there’s ice. That’s why they tell us not to run. That’s. It’s a scene yelled at by many patients. So I’m quick to go into this patient. It’s like, I’ve had the same experience, and it’s tough not to be like, do you realize what you called 911 for those?
So, this guy is in cardiac arrest? Well, he didn’t yell at you then. Yeah. Bystanders? Yeah. The bystanders are usually the ones who are the most frustrated about our speed. And I’m not ever just casually walking. Yeah. It’s different from two days ago. No. It’s possible. Yes. It’s purposeful. It’s a good pace. But no, I’m not going to run on a scene. It doesn’t help anybody. It just puts me and the people up to answer fellow responders, and yeah, people up—them bystanders. One of the biggest parts of our job is to keep everybody calm. Yeah, because if I’m panicking, how will you believe me when I’m like, oh, you?
Juddson:
I think you’re going to be okay. Which is a whole different conversation than how you communicate with your patients when they’re not going to be okay. Yeah, we should do that one sometime. That one’s fun. So I’m going to hand it to you to tell us the story that I really want to talk about. You had a pretty crazy experience with a patient, right? So, walk us through that. And from the time you got the call all the way through, tell us the story. I want to. I’m going to close my eyes and feel the story. Sure. Well, I’m sitting in the United parking lot, probably playing some kind of Sudoku or watching a movie or probably actually studying because that’s what I do in my off time.
Zach:
Study, study, medical stuff, smarty pants. Yeah, that’s a lie. That’s probably why. Yeah, I sit there and reread my book, thinking about push ups and all the reps to do. So, we’re sitting in the United parking lot on South 14th. That’s real. And we get a call for an altered mental status and 70 something-year-old man or 60 something-year-old man with altered mental status. So it’s a bravo response. So we’re going there. Lights and sirens, and we arrive on the scene and on the scene are 2 or 3 police units, and we have our CRT team, you know, very familiar with CRT. Yeah. The critical or critical units seem. Yeah. They help with mental health issues. Yeah. Staffed with, in our city. They’re staffed with a paramedic, a police officer, and a health social worker. Yeah, health social worker. Yeah. It’s cool. They cruise around in an SUV together, and they. It’s lightened the weather on us on the one side because they visit these patients constantly, and they know them very well. And so, this guy was walking around knocking on random doors, saying that, hey, I have work to do. And one of these ladies called 911 because he felt uneasy about the situation. So cops came, and cops realized that he was a little bit off his rockers. So, they call for the CRT unit. And the paramedic assessed this gentleman, and she believed that we do what we call impressions in an EMS. We don’t diagnose; we do give impressions.
That helps our treatment plan and determine what we want to do next. Her impression was that he had some chemical imbalance going off. So he, she calls 911, the ambulance service to come pick him up and take him to the hospital, check out his bloodwork. So, I had a different impression when I got on the scene. My impression is that this dude probably has some form of Alzheimer’s or dementia, like sundowners. What’s going on is that he just seems confused. He’s answering questions, communicating with us, and joking around. He just seems confused. So, my partner’s name is Connie. She’s my sister-in-law. And at the time, she was pregnant with my now niece. Kind of cool. I have her take the patient to the back of the ambulance to do our initial sets of vitals, and I’m talking to police officers, talking to the medic, and just kind of getting more of a history on this patient. So, then we get in the back of the ambulance, and the vitals all look great.
He’s answering questions. Well, he’s stable. He’s just a little bit off. And I totally like. Okay, Tony, some of your patients. So, in our city, it’s a basic call. EMT can run the call, and the paramedic can drive. We did not need an IV. There is no need for medications. I didn’t need to look at his heart. So, yeah, it’s going to be a nice, easy trip. Taxi to the hospital and right when I was about to leave the ambulance, the officer walked up to me and said, hey, we’re this. This guy has a warrant for arrest for sexual assault charges or sexual something. Charges. So, then I’m like, okay, well, Tony, you drive, I’m going to be back here, and I still ran and BLS because there’s no need for anything else.
So now we’re on our way to the hospital and the layout of the ambulance. For those who don’t know what an ambulance looks like in the back, you have the stretcher on the left side of the box. On the right side is what we call the bench seat. A lot of times, we’re doing active treatments there. We’re talking with the patient there. We can be behind the stretcher in what we call the captain’s chair. And that’s kind of you. You have a little table and access to all our medications, IVs, supplies, and radios. We can view the monitor to watch their heart rate, SpO2, vitals, and blood pressure. So that’s where I’m. That’s usually where I’m sitting if I’m not talking to the patient actively. So, at the start of the transport, I’m sitting on the bench seat. We’re talking. He’s thirsty. His mouth is dry. Yes, water. I give him water. Tony hits a bump, and it spills all over him. We’re just laughing about this. Like he’s laughing about how clumsy I’m blinding my partner, you know, as usual, and, so we’re all in this joking time, and, I’m asking his medical history, like, hey, you taking medications? He says, yes, they’re my bag. I’m like, okay, I’m going to see your bag. And see what they are. And he’s like, well, I’d rather you not.
And his explanation was like, that’s everything that I own. And it’s like me asking to go into your house and search for something. And because he’s a stable patient, and I did not need to evade his personal space, that’s what he said. Okay, that’s fine. And it’s okay for me to know what medications you’re on. Hindsight probably was to help me in the following scenario in the future. But, anyways, so then I’m getting in the captain’s chair, the chair behind the stretcher. We’re on Ambler. I think Willis stopped at a red light, and I see him fumbling around with the seatbelts. I know that he’s taking them off, but I’m in the middle of a radio fort telling the hospital what we’re bringing them. And then, halfway through this radio report, I see him stand up out of the stretcher. So, I immediately drop the radio on the seat and grab this guy’s shoulder. Hey, we’re about to move you back on the stretcher. Well, he turned around and had a gun in my face, so his stuff was placed in the back corner of the ambulance. Prior to getting his vitals, he folded up his jacket. It’s a really nice place on top of his backpack. And it was just all there. And his line of sight. Well, then first thing I do is stick my hands up and I start walking backwards towards the captain’s chair. I sit down on the captain’s chair, and then key up on purpose.
I sit on the radio and hit the button, so people hear what I’m saying so that they know what’s going on. So now he’s talking to me. I don’t remember what he said, but I’m leaving. Like, he starts shooting closer to me. He sits on the bench seat at the edge of the bench seat. So, he’s about two feet away from my face the gun. And then my partner is seeing all this in the rearview mirror. She’s acting like she didn’t see it, so she’s on her end. I found out later. I was trying to key up a change radio station. So, in the past, it’s different now. But we had a channel for our dispatch, and we had a channel for the hospital. Right. That’s not different, but there’s a different part I’ll talk about later. But. So, we were on the hospital channel, which they could barely hear. You’re holding the mic to your face, let alone if you’re sitting on it. Right. So, she was trying to key up to our dispatch channel to call for help without him knowing. Because I was keyed up, she couldn’t change channels, which we learned afterward. So now she’s looking at the radio, like, what’s going on? Why is this not changing? She doesn’t know I’m sitting on it, and he notices she’s messing with the radio. So he turns his head and says, “Hey, girl, don’t mess with that radio.” And the minute he turned his head, I was able to jump on his arm with the gun and push it down. As I was pushing it down, that first shot went off. I remember pinning his right arm with the gun, with my left arm against the wall, and yelling to taunt him to get in the back of the ambulance.
So, she jumps out and tells the dispatcher what’s going on. She jumps out, is running in the back of the ambulance, and then she hears a second gunfire go off. So, he shot the second time, and that’s when I looked down and saw that he had a revolver in his hand. So, I was able to stick my hand between the trigger and the strike plate to see if my finger was there. There’s no way that gun’s going off anymore. So, as long as my hand was there. You’re good. So I’m covering that strike plate. She hears a second gun go off, a shot go off, and so she runs back to the driver’s side to see what happened. She told me later, so I. I didn’t know if you were shot back there. I just heard the second shot. I didn’t know what was going on. So then, I see her pop in the door. I’m like, come back here, come back here. You know, just yelling. And I’m hearing her talk on the radio simultaneously, and she runs in the back.
She told me again later that she was trying to direct traffic. They were just all stopping in the middle of the road, watching her run out in the ambulance. She was trying to have people move. She didn’t want gunfire to go out towards them, to stop in the middle of the road. Anyway, she ended up opening the back door, and then all I remember hearing her say was a knife. And I look over my right shoulder. And then there’s a knife coming towards my neck, and she had hit the back of my collar of the sweatshirt, and then it hit me 2 or 3 times in the back of the head. With this knife, I was able to. So, my left arm pinning his right arm with the gun. My right arm then took his left arm pinned against the wall, and I just had my shoulder into him. Pinning him against the ambulance. And then my partner jumped back there. She was able to pry the knife from his hands. And then as I’m, fighting off this guy, he’s headbutted me. I’m headbutting him because right now, both of our hands are occupied. We’re head-butted each other back in the fourth. She’s, like, checking the back of my neck. Checking my head. Like, for injuries.
Juddson:
So you’re in the middle of the fight and just making sure she’s suitable for an example of, like, you know, just going into robot mode.
Zach:
All this knife comes at my head three times. And the first thing she does is check me out. So then I just she’s, holding this guy’s legs because now his legs are flailing, trying to get his body weight on top. She and I are still on the radio, calling for the police. I’m yelling at this patient like,
Juddson;
Hey, what kind of gun is this? Like, what kind of caliber are we dealing with? And he’s telling me it’s a Smith and Weston. You know, he was yelling at me, and then, I’m like, caliber. Caliber? What’s the caliber like? I remember having this conversation with him during this fight, and,
Juddson:
At one point, why did you want to know the caliber? Oh, I got shot. I want to. I got shot with. Okay. I figured that was important information to relay to somebody. And I remember at one point I was squeezing his hand so hard on that gun in between the trigger and all that stuff that he’s like, hey, you’re breaking my hand.
Zach:
You’re breaking my hand. Get off me! I’m like, I’m not getting off. Sorry about your hand, but knock it off. You get this, you know, and then finally, the officer comes up and walks to the back of the ambulance. Hey, what’s going on? My hey, this guy’s got a gun in his right hand. And then perked up. So, he walks around the side door, opens it up, and he’s able to get this gun out of our hands. At that point, other ambulances and supervisors were there. I remember one medic. Oh, I don’t think it needs his name. He grabbed him by the bell. Let’s get this man off the bus and start trying to pull him like, oh, no. So, the cop ends up handing my partner the handcuffs. They’re fighting off the legs, and they just handcuffed this guy. Now he’s finally handcuffed. And I was able to step off and just kind of relax a little bit. That’s when the medic came up, got his belt, and tried to pull him off the box, and I had to talk the medic down, like, hey, okay, it’s all done. Like, we don’t need to injure this guy anymore. We certainly can’t attack this guy. Yeah. It’s just emotions are flared, and oh, I, you know, I would be too. It’d be, it’d be hot.
Today, you’re going to the hospital because we’ve had a conversation about a different incident. And I was like, no, Louis, I don’t need to go to the hospital, like, I’m fine. And, he said, no, you’re going to the hospital. And I said, well, as long as I’m not right in the back. And he just sighed, “That’s fine. Get in the front seat; we’re taking you to the hospital.” So he takes me to the hospital, and then, that’s kind of how that played out. I think I left some details out, but it’s a detailed story. That is awesome. I mean, not awesome. The retelling of it is fantastic because it’s just, man, that painted a picture well for me.
Juddson:
So, one good job. Thank God it was you in the back. I’ve heard that multiple times. Yeah. They got it. It was you and not your partner. But also, thank God it was you and not somebody else because I don’t know if somebody else would have been able to react the way you did.
Zach:
I’ve heard that, like, my size, strength, and wrestling background. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’ve. I’ve heard someone tell me, like, I’m glad you’re back there because I might have killed him. This guy had mixed martial arts experience. He had a short fuse, and I believe that this guy might have killed this dude for pulling a gun on him. Oh. So, like, I had this size and the ability, but I also had like the chill, chill demeanor until nicely, you’re a God fearing man, and you’re a good man, and it means that your goal is not to harm.
Juddson:
Your goal is to protect. And yeah, as a God thing, in my opinion, a blessing that it was you and I hate that it had to happen to you. I was not a word bringing that topic up. I mean, not only that, but just the fact that something I didn’t say is. Well, yeah, just me being calm in that situation, me having the chance to jump on his arm.
Zach:
Yeah. There are two shots fired right over our own two cylinders. So I’m glad that thing didn’t blow up in our face. We would have seen if that’s what happens. Yeah. I guess, and then, the knife. So. Got stabbed in the head 2 or 3 times in the back of my collar. My collar was thick. The collar kind of folded out into a hood? Oh, God. I have a hood in. So it was really puffy. So that there was a knife mark on there the back of my head. There are scratches. But that blade he was using was a lock knife. Didn’t extend all the way. So he hit it, hit my head, and they would go back onto his fingers, and he’d pull back and it. Oh, it didn’t go back on those things. So, it was cutting his fingers instead. And so yeah, it was. Yeah. Slicing his fingers rather than puncturing my head. So that was right there, a God thing. There are lots of places to get that open. I mean, there’s no telling him what. That would have penetrated. And that ran my brain right in the back of my neck.
Juddson:
Dude. So that’s incredible. I know it’s happening to 3 or 4 jobs in, you know. Yeah. I assume you probably just, like, this guy’s hitting me in the back. Wow. Well, that’s incredible, man. To go through something like that and then be like, okay, let’s all go back to work now.
Zach:
Well, I tried, but they wouldn’t let me. So, I was in the hospital for three hours. My partner and I were like, we’re going to be back in the truck today.
Juddson:
As as your friend. If I were there, I would also have been like, hey, man, it’s probably not the best idea to just jump right back in. That’s good. That’s good. They did? Yeah. You need a little bit of time to decompress that because that’s a big deal. And, you know, unfortunately, there are probably other stories like that out there for EMS workers.
Zach:
My partner that day was later on, was telling me stories of, like, she’d had multiple knives pulled on her. She’s been in the career way longer than I’ve been in it. Yeah, she’s had several times where she’s been at a knife pull on her first gun. I’ve had somebody try to stab me with the scissors before they stole my trauma shears and tried to stab me. He was just frustrated, and he was responding really weirdly to it. Yeah. So never the kind of danger that you were in.
Juddson:
That’s insane. So, I’ve got several questions related to that. So what? What were you doing anything, like, ringing an alarm before that happened? No, I’ve thought about that a lot. I believe that the first I thought in this. Well. Initially, getting on the scene is just an everyday call. It gets confusing. He’s just. Yeah. He’s a sweet old man. I mean, 60s, whatever. Big 280 pounds. And really chill. He was answering all of our questions. He was fighting. But then the other guy thing is that I decided to, be in the back with my partner. Yeah. I don’t know how I would have reacted if there was not being out there. I think she would have missed it. But also, like, out of respect. I was mentally ill, I think, for years later. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That kind of damage that that she with like your unborn niece in there, you know, like there’s a lot of different factors in there.
Zach:
He was laughing with me. We were joking around. My hand was on his shoulder, and we were very interactive. Oh, man. I wonder what switch flipped in him that made him react to this. Do I think that he’s a very good actor? I do, like, he was acting the part. I think he knew he was going to be arrested. And I think he realized that transport is the best way for me to guard the situation. There are no cops around, like, let me pull this gun on this ambulance driver and or worker. In the best case scenario, he runs out the door. The worst case scenario is we both get shot, which he could have done at any time. Yeah. Like there’s he like, you know, times two, 2 or 3 I mean yeah. And that comes into question his gray area. Like I let some people who are alter ego if they’re like, I don’t if they don’t answer the question the way I want it answered, it’s it’s a judgment call. I mean, like with him having to make it being confused and like you say. And then, his boss dropped him off to do some work. Another part of the story is like this guy had a gun on his jacket knocking on women’s doors, saying that he has work to do. He already has a history of these sexually violent crimes. There’s no telling what he was going to do. I think he was there at that woman’s house to do something. And I think she had this weird sense going on that she’s all the police. Because now, I mean, if he could not answer the door and let him go, you walk to the next door and, you know, and to think this chain of events ended with you having to wrestle this guy with a gun. Yeah, crazy. But yeah, to answer your question, I had no idea this would happen. Yeah, it was very chill and relaxed. Well, you don’t get to say, like, I don’t know what’s on his mind, but that’s my point. That is, you know that that is how it is sometimes, like there are no warnings that this is going to happen.
Juddson:
Now, could there be a lot of things that could have happened to catch this, but not necessarily on your end? It’s just things that could have happened before you even got there that may have played out different. But it played out the way it had to play out. Yeah. And nobody was hurt.
Zach:
Yeah. I mean, even him, he’s, he’s fine and in prison and fine and in prison, so like, and probably a better situation for him, honestly. Yeah. So. Wow. Wow. Well, so, I got to turn my page here. I haven’t been following it anyway, but I’ll look at it again. Would you have done anything different now? Then. I probably made more of a list to see what was in his bag. Moving his jacket off his back, I probably felt something heavy in his coat. I wonder if I would have really looked into it. It could have been a big wallet or something. Yeah. I would not have assumed it was a gun. Yeah, I know the cops had searched his bag but never searched his coat, which might have been lying on. I don’t know if they might’ve been lying on the sidewalk. Maybe they didn’t see it. I mean, we’re all human. I mean, like, people on Facebook were just trash. Police. Yeah, even trash to me for not doing a full assessment, like, because I didn’t feel a gun on the guy, but it wasn’t on him. It wasn’t on him. And, like, we’re all human. I know that. I mean, towards police, there are always haters. Yeah. I mean, that’s a single EMS or any responders. There’s human error and everything; we’re always working with humans. You’re always different. So yeah, I told you that push to get in the bag more; something I do now is all bags go.
There’s a spot on the stretcher where you can set up their belongings behind the patient. So all that is still in that spot. If they need to get their bag and don’t want me to touch it, also let me in the back. But I’m going to watch them get in their bag. I’ll sit on the bench and watch them go through things, and my posture will change now. So I’m very chill, very relaxed. You’ll see me talking to patients sitting on the couch next to them, leaning against their wall. The hands in my pockets are sometimes very nonchalant. Now it’s more like I’m like a loaded gun. I mean, no pun intended, but I’m like a spring. I’m just. I’m ready to move in any direction. And you witnessed me do it this way. I approach the patient. Care is to make them feel as comfortable and calm as possible. Yeah, so I get the quickest and easiest answers on their level. Like, yeah, being a person with them and just. But I mean, when you experience something like this, it makes you think, you know, you may be doing that, but the patient’s not. Yeah. And they may have different intentions at any point. Yeah. So, and that’s, you know, if I were to have a follow-up for everyone or, you know, a voice of or a piece of advice for everyone, it’s don’t ever assume anything about your patients.
Juddson:
Yeah. And in your situation, it wouldn’t have made a difference one way or the other because, you know, you got to transport the guy, and, well, somebody else we could have done it. I mean, he had an arrest warrant. I mean, they’re going to be arrested at the hospital. Why don’t you have an officer drive with you in the ambulance?
Zach:
Yeah, technically, it’s to be in everyone’s policies, but I need to find out. Some of those gray areas are again. They don’t want these cars on the side of the road. And I don’t know what goes on. That seems like a petty reason. Yeah, maybe it is, but I don’t know, I know, I don’t. I doubt that that’s what they were thinking in there, and they were thinking, well, and then this is fine. This specific scenario. Yeah. I mean, he was super chill and very cooperative with the police. Yeah. And so, I mean, and it’s the reality is, no matter how prepared you are or how you try to control the situation, you could find yourself in these situations. Yeah. And that’s precisely what happened in your case. The situations felt in control. Everything felt normal. And then, just suddenly, it wasn’t. And the medics, what we’re taught is that when you’re in the back of the emails, you’re in a controlled environment. You’re always near to intubate this patient, and you can do it on the scene. But uncontrolled people are watching you. You don’t have all your equipment in all the spaces right around, like you can get into, like the ambulance, where it’s quieter. It’s just you and the other responders are more controlled that way. You have this false narrative; not a false narrative, but the false idea that you’re in a controlled area like you’re here for your patients.
You can’t. And you have a partner who’s been up for 24 hours because those shifts are crazy. Yeah. So, they don’t at 3:00 in the morning like the environment or the work could be better. The work world of first responders is not designed in such a way to keep us on our toes. They don’t. We need to be given the necessary tools or resources to be alert and enthusiastic, and because they, you know, we will work 48-hour shifts or whatever.
Juddson:
And I get like, that’s the nature of the beast. That’s what we do in an absolutely. I have no complaint about it, but it lends itself to mental health issues and physical health issues. Yeah, to situations like this. Health issues. Family. Yeah. Having a good family life and being in this world is hard, but it’s an important job. People, you know, like yourself, are doing it because it means something to you to help other people, to be there, and even to go back into it after a situation like this and still be a caring human being and not look at every patient as if they’re trying to shoot you. And so, you know, your sister, anybody who doesn’t know I work with his sister Brittany, and she’s told me pieces of the story, but to hear the whole thing played out, you know, it makes me proud of who you are. Yeah. And anybody would be lucky to have you as their partner. And, you know, you seem to have had your partner’s back that day, and you, you did a good job. You reacted in a good way. You didn’t overreact to it. You just did exactly what you were supposed to do. That’s impressive. So. Well, this is a good stopping point for all of us because we could go on and tell lots of fun stories. But you’ve got a baby held. Your baby is seven months. Seven months. I don’t know if you want to say his name.
Zach:
Yeah, yeah. Kenneth Brooks, I got it. I’m never going to live that down. Yeah. You’re right, though. I have a million different papers that have your first name on them.
Juddson:
Well, Zach, thanks for coming in and participating in this podcast. Me. And it’s always fun to catch up with you. And I know this is a weird and unique way to catch up, but we must do this again. Without mixing cameras, too. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So many of you out there always in this the same way if you’re interested in hearing more about E.M.S., learning more about it, becoming a paramedic, becoming an EMT, or you want to hear more cool stories. Feel free to reach out to us at TexasEMSschool.com, where you can find information about how to get with us. We’ll catch you next time.
